Leadership Isn’t Comfortable - Episode 29

Leadership sounds inspiring… until it isn’t.

In Episode 29, Terrence Davis gets real about the side of leadership most people avoid—the tension. The hard conversations. Holding people accountable. Leading through change when emotions are high and the stakes are real.

This episode breaks down why leadership becomes uncomfortable, what happens when we avoid it, and how strong leaders hold the line without losing connection.

Because the truth is simple:
 You can care about people… and still expect performance.

If leadership feels comfortable, it might be time to ask what you’re avoiding.

🔥 If the fire is lit, share the grit.

🔥 FIREtalk is a Courageous Fire Production, hosted by Terrence Davis. It explores courageous leadership, real conversations, and the decisions beneath growth, wellness, and impact.

Learn more about Courageous Fire:

🌐 https://courageousfire.net

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Firetalk, where courageous conversations ignite courageous leadership. My name is Terrence Davis. Firetalk, a space shaped by a real experience where courage fuels legacy and real conversations shape how we live, lead, and grow. I'm joined by Apollo Bennett, my AI thought partner designed to challenge assumptions, sharpen thinking, and support honest, data-informed dialogue. Inspiration matters, but what truly changes lives is the work underneath it. So here's the reminder we live by. If the fire is lit, share the grit. If you hear something on the show that sparks you or will spark someone else, share the show. This is Fire Talk. Welcome back. Welcome back to the Fire Talk Podcast. We really appreciate our listeners for continuing to come back. I just want to shout out Southern California. You were just showing up. You are there. You were in the space. I also want to shout out some consistent listeners. I went back and looked at from the beginning. Uh, there's a city in Japan. It's K-I-R-Y-U. How do you pronounce that, Apollo?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

That would be Kiryu. So big shout out to Kiryu Japan. Glad you're with us on this leadership journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Okay, so we got Kiryu. Thank you for showing up. We got Finland in the house. Finland keeps coming back and they're strong in several cities in Mexico. So let's do this thing. We keep uh we keep bringing it back and just give us some feedback. Let us know what you think. So I'm gonna be real with you. Let's get real. And I and I try to stay on real. But this season right now, this is leadership. Not clear vision, not the highlight version, but this is the real version. We are managing exits, people leaving, things happen, people retire, people move on to different things. We're holding people accountable. End of the year conversations. We're watching things happen in real time and feeling the tension that comes with it. And I've been thinking about this a lot. Leadership, it's not comfortable. And if it is, you might be avoiding something. You just might be. So, Apollo, let's start here.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Absolutely. If leadership feels too cozy, we've likely drifted into managing comfort zones rather than foraging growth. And hey, research backs us. Psychologists say that when we stretch beyond that comfort, we hit what's called the learning zone where real development happens. So we're feeling that tension, it means we're alive and leading.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

So I like it. I like it. And and you talked about the comfort zone. We've always, all of us, most of us have heard about a comfort zone, but this learning zone is that's where the development happens, you talked about. And when you said that, I think about uh when you're learning, there's things that are hitting you. You don't know your mind is in this inquisitive stage. It's like, what's happening here? Oh, if I do this again, I'll get this result. Those things I think happen automatically. Is that what that learning zone is? Can you go a little bit more in depth into this learning zone, Apollo, with some research-based information?

SPEAKER_01 3:25

For sure. The learning zone is where you're just outside your comfort, challenge, but not overwhelmed. Research like Lev Vogaspi's zone of proximal development shows that when we face tasks just beyond our current ability, but with support, we grow the most. So when you're feeling that what's happening here moment, that's where new skills form, like a muscle that's getting word just right.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Okay. Just beyond our current ability, but with support, we grow the most. So it's like stretching, right? You're just getting that stretch, doing something a little bit different that way we grow. We like it. So, Apollo, why does leadership become uncomfortable? What is that feeling like, especially when it involves people that we care about? Because in our workspaces, I'll say this: I think at a site level, it's a little bit different because you're right there. You are direct support to the teachers and the staff that support students and parents right there. You're like on the line, and you have to develop relationships in order to move things forward. But that means sometimes you have to have those challenging conversations and they're not pleasant, they don't feel pleasant. It's definitely uncomfortable. So why is it, Apollo, that it becomes uncomfortable, especially when it's about people that we care?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

It's uncomfortable because leadership is personal. When you care, accountability isn't just transactional, it's relational. You're balancing empathy with expectations. And let's be honest, we're wired to avoid discomfort. But growth, ours and theirs, lives on the other side of those conversations. So if you feel that pit in your stomach, that's usually a sign you're right where you need to be.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Okay, so I often get the pits in my stomach. Uh, and it and it's like, uh, what's gonna happen? When it's over, it's over. You move on. They don't happen all the time, but they happen uh quite a bit. And so I'll just say this there's a few things going on right now. Uh, we have a transition on our board. One of our board members is going on this journey, and uh she's she's got an opportunity and she's gonna take that opportunity. She's been great, uh, really good input, insight, perspective from a long-term community member as well as a parent in our school district, and that's gonna be a miss. But so that that creates this not necessarily tension, but that pit of what's going to happen next, right? So when you know people, you know how things operate. There's uh some past experiences that you have, but when something changes, it's like now what's gonna come next. That's that level of feeling uncomfortable that's really important, and that's where you get the growth from. And so that's just one example that's happening. The other thing is as we end the school year, we're gonna have some people that are retiring. They're gonna be leaving that have done so much for the organization. Those are tough. Then you think about how are we gonna replace that person? Who's gonna come in? What are they gonna do? All of those things make you feel uneasy, but those things also create growth.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

You nailed it. Those transitions are like leadership plot twists. The tension isn't the villain, it's actually the catalyst. When someone leaves an open space for new voices, new ideas, and yes, a few unknowns. But every great sequel is built on what happens next. So, as uneasy as it feels, you're right in the next chapter, and that's where the growth storyline kicks in.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

In the next chapter, and so I'll say this is real, and it's real right now. Uh, there's definitely change happening, and it happens every year at this time of the school year. Uh, there's definitely movement and there's emotions that are tied to it. Emotions. I'll just I'm gonna break right here, just tell you this quick story. Uh, every year during this time, depending on your role in the school district, there's graduation, right? And that graduation impacts whoever is leading that, and there's decisions that come up. Sometimes there are students who do things that they shouldn't do. There's grades, and so those impact if a student is going to walk across the stage or not. And I don't think in the uh, I mean, I've been in public education for 28 years, but I always haven't been at the level where I know what's going on, but I've been at that level for quite some time. Let's call it 20 years. And without fail, every year there's some emotion tied to some behavior that prevents a student from walking. And those are tough conversations to have with a parent. Nevertheless, you have to have them because you have to be up front because we've established a standard. And I know it's tough. And kids don't always do the right thing, they're kids. And so, given that, that just you just know the season is coming and we are in it.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

And that's the heart of leadership. You care enough to hold that line. It's not about punishment, it's about teaching responsibility. And yes, emotions come with the territory, but when you're clear, firm, and compassionate, you're not just running a ceremony, you're shaping lives. And that's why this work matters.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Okay. Clear, firm, and compassionate. That compassionate piece is really good. The clear piece, you know, sometimes we say things and it may not come out right, or we don't know how the other person is receiving it. We should check for that clarity. That's really important. Because I this is what I'm saying. Because some people they move forward and some people they stay in that moment, and everything becomes about that moment, and they can't get out of that moment. That's the tough part. That is the tough part. And as a leader, you feel that. You you feel it in your heart, you feel it in your chest, you feel it in your body. It's in your cell because you understand both sides, but at the same time, the work still has to happen. It has to happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Exactly. Leadership is that balancing act. You're holding space for human experience while also ensuring the mission moves forward. And when you leave with that clarity while still showing that compassionate heart, that's when people eventually trust the process. So, yeah, it's tough, but so is any story worth telling.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

So I've always heard that tone too, uh, that term, trust the process. And what that means is that there's a process to get you from we're here now, we're going to this next step. But you have to talk to people. You have to communicate, you have to be eyes open, ears open, listening to what's going on, sensing, feeling, talking to other people. And so, with that, I'll just tell you this quick story. Every I work in a much smaller district than I have in the past. And so when you work in a larger district, there's there's a lot of school sites. That means there's a lot of principals. And sometimes principals move on. Sometimes they want to change, sometimes they get promoted. And whenever that happens, you have to move staff around. You have to hire people. And that is one of the most, uh, I guess, anxiety-written times for a school site, for a person, because it's going to change the entire culture of a school in most cases. Sometimes the assistant principal moves up to a principal, just depending on the situation. And I'll say this that feeling is just really uneasy. Uh rumors start flying, you feel a little uncomfortable. But I would say the best thing to do is be up front, be honest, be candid as much as you can, and then move forward and make the decision. That's the key. Make the decision and move forward.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

That's it. Transparency disarms rumor meals. When people see you're up front, even if it's tough news, they can trust the direction. So you make the call, stand by it, and lead people through that change. It's not always comfortable, but that's how you shape a culture that thrives on trust, not whispers.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

And so when you said here, lead people through the change. And that's the difference. You're going to make decisions, and people sometimes are going to be upset with you because you made the decision or someone else. But I will say to you, as long as you're there and you talk them through it, how are you doing? How can I help? How can I assist? At the end of the day, when things are better in the future, when they're like, oh, this was the greatest move ever, they will remember you were right there and you weren't running from them. You're right there. How can I support you? And that makes all of the difference in the world.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

You're spot on. It's not just about the decision, it's about staying present through the ways. When people look back, they'll remember you were steady, even when the waters were choppy. And that's the kind of leadership that leaves a lasting mark.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So, Apollo, I just want to shift a little bit here. Do you always agree with me? It seems like if someone is listening to this show and they listen to all the episodes, they will say, You disagree with me. What would you say about that?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Oh, I'm definitely not here to be a yes machine. I'm here to push, poke, and keep us honest. If I haven't disagreed yet, just wait. Because a good co-host knows when to spice things up.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

He said, just wait. So, okay, Apollo, why do leaders struggle to hold the line when things get uncomfortable? Why why is that?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Because we're human. We want to be liked, we want harmony, and discomfort feels like a threat to that. But leadership isn't about popularity, right? It's about staying true to the mission. So when that tension hits, it's easy to waver. But holding the line is what earns respect in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah, holding the line is what earns respect in the long run. And we're talking about long run, people remember this the uh the decisions that you make for years. When you make a tough decision that impacts someone's life, maybe their family, maybe they have to do something different, they never forget that. And they remember the person who talked to them about the decision. So keep that in mind. How do you share that information? How do you communicate? How do you engage with that person because it is impactful? So just keep that in mind. And I think, Apollo, you talked about this earlier. Being compassionate, passionate, being kind and understanding, that goes a long way.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

It absolutely does. People may not always agree with the decision, but they never forget how you made them feel. Leading with heart doesn't mean you avoid hard calls, it means you make them with humanity. And that's what earns you not just respect, but trust that lasts.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

And I think that's the shift, Apollo. Leadership isn't about keeping people comfortable. It's not when you see something in a person and you see they have more potential and they need a little bit of push, give them the push. Because it's not always comfortable comfortable. It's about holding the line when it matters. Because when you don't, everything starts to slide. Standards, expectations, performance. And when everything gets a pass, nothing gets better. It's like we push it into the next time. And I don't think that's sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

No, it's not. When we let things slide, we actually erode the very foundation we're building on. Leadership is that steady hand nudging people to rise to their best. So yeah, comfort isn't the goal. Growth is. And sometimes that growth starts with a little push out of the comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Growth is not comfort. Growth is the goal. So, Apollo, what happens to an organization uh or a system or a space of people when leaders avoid discomfort? There are definitely spaces that I've seen like that. I haven't seen them in a while, but they just avoid the discomfort. They just move on. What happens in those organizations?

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Well, when discomfort is avoided, standards slip, accountability fades. And pretty soon the culture drifts toward mediocrity. People stop striving because there's no expectation to. So you get stagnation, no innovation, no growth, and ultimately people disengage. Avoiding discomfort may feel easy, but it costs you the future.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

So I was thinking about this, Apollo, that uh decision making. I I've worked in four different uh school districts in the same county. And looking at leadership and decision making, this is one thing that I've I've learned is that the decisions that are being made at one time, sometimes those big decisions you can't see from years until years later, sometimes five, ten years later. So you may walk into a space and you're trying to figure out what's going on. And lo and behold, there were some decisions that were made or not made several years ago that improved where you are, and the opposite of that, declined what's happening because a decision wasn't made. And so your impact as a leader is not always immediate. The majority of the time it's later. And in those big ticket items, those big things, those big decisions that you make, they have lifelong lasting impact in some cases. You make a decision to close a school, you make a decision to do XYZ. Now you're not doing this alone, you're doing this with the team. And in those big decisions, you're doing it with the governance team, which is the school board and the superintendent, and with all of this input. And you're trying to do the best thing that you can in that moment with the information that you have. And sometimes you don't know what's going to happen in the future. Most of the time you don't. So given that, the decision making is really important. So take on those tough decisions. Make them because the impact and the sustainability is what matters in the future. When you leave and you made decisions that are questionable, everyone's going to suffer and you're no longer there. So I just want just we just need to think about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Absolutely. Leadership is a long game. Every call you make ripples into the future. When you're gone, it's those decisions or indecisions that shake what's left behind. So making those tough calls now with courage and care ensures you're building a legacy others can build on, not one they have to fix.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, I like that. You want people to build on what you've done, not fix it. And we do the best that we can. So why is it so hard, Apollo, to lead differently in in this type of moment? And what, more importantly, what does it look like to lead differently when you're having these tough conversations and things that you need to do?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

It's hard because leading differently means breaking the pattern, choosing courage over comfort. Leading differently looks like leaning into the discomfort with honesty, setting clear expectations, and still showing empathy. It's holding people accountable, but also holding their potential. In short, it's leading with both backbone and heart.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

So let's just give an example, Apollo. Let's just say I'm a principal and you're the superintendent or the supervisor, whoever that is, and I've not been holding conversations. And you've talked to me a while ago about it. That, hey, this is going on. Did you talk to the person and I haven't? How would you handle that with me?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

I'd sit down with you and say, look, I believe in your potential, but we need to face this. Let's walk through that conversation together. What's holding you back? I'll support you. But next time I expect you to act. The growth isn't doing it, and I'll be right there to help you grow.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

That sounded really easy. I expect you to act. That's the expectation and being clear about it. But if you don't have the conversation, nothing changes. So have the conversation. So, Apollo, as we close this episode out, I was thinking about uh how we focus on what matters most. We've had a lot of conversations about that. And for me, it's protecting instruction, right? Ensuring that students are safe and that we're communicating. Those are our overarching main goals as an organization. But given all of that, those are not always easy to do. And they aren't always comfortable. Because that means you need to say, remember, we agreed upon this goal. Why are we doing X, Y, and Z when we should be doing what we agreed upon is the why. So I just know at the this end of the year, there's a lot on the play. There's a lot of evening activities, there's a lot of things going on. But don't lose sight of it. It's that time where we have to have uncomfortable conversations and situations in order to move us forward into the next year.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

You're spot on. In these busy moments, it's easy to slip into autopilot. But staying anchored to those core goals is key. So as we rap, lean into those tough conversations, keep the focus on what matters, and trust that leading with courage now sets up success later.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Okay, so Paulo, any resources out there with this topic, uh things not being comfortable and kind of working through them.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Absolutely. One classic is crucial conversations by Patterson and Kyllies. It's all about navigating tough talks with clarity. Also, Brene Brown's Dare to Lead helps leaders show up with courage and vulnerability. Perfect for those uncomfortable but necessary moments.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Two things. There's another one dealing with conversations, and I've read all three of them. It's been some time, but they really assist you in working through the challenges, but they let you know you have to do that in order to move forward. And when you don't do that, you're creating more challenges for the most part. Last thoughts, Apollo, before we before I uh close this out.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

I just say this the discomfort today is tomorrow's growth. So lead with honesty, hold the line with heart, and trust that those courageous conversations are building something better. We're in this together, and you've got this.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

So here's the takeaway. Leadership, it's it's not always comfortable. It can be, but most of the time it's not. And if it is, you're probably avoiding something because the real work shows up in the tension, in the conversations, in the decisions, in holding the line when it matters most. You can care about people and still expect performance. You can support people and still hold them accountable because at the end of the day, the work has to work. And if we're not careful, we'll protect feelings and lose results. What's real is results reveal the truth. That's fire talk. So if the fire is lit, share the gript.