The Work Is Working: What Real Impact Looks Like in Leadership - Episode 31

Episode 31 dives into one of the hardest truths in leadership:
sometimes the work is working long before the applause shows up.

Terrence Davis and Apollo Bennett unpack what real impact actually looks like during seasons of pressure, transition, and uncertainty.

This episode explores:
• Why leaders often struggle to recognize impact while carrying the weight of the work
• How strong systems, clarity, and consistency become evidence of real leadership
• Why discomfort doesn’t always mean failure
• What it means to keep the mission moving during change and transition

From education leadership to organizational culture, this conversation is a grounded reminder that meaningful work often reveals itself in the middle of the tension—not after it’s gone.

If the fire’s lit—share the grit. 🔥

🔥 FIREtalk is a Courageous Fire Production, hosted by Terrence Davis. It explores courageous leadership, real conversations, and the decisions beneath growth, wellness, and impact.

Learn more about Courageous Fire:

🌐 https://courageousfire.net

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💼 Linkedin:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrence-davis-17594a347/

📺 Youtube:  http://www.youtube.com/@TerrenceDavis-y7j

🔥 Linktree:  https://linktr.ee/courageousfire

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Fire Talk, where courageous conversations ignite courageous leadership. My name is Terrence Davis. Firetalk, a space shaped by real experience where courage fuels legacy, and real conversations shape how we live, lead, and grow. I'm joined by Apollo Bennett, my AI thought partner, designed to challenge assumptions, sharpen thinking, and support honest, data-informed dialogue. Inspiration matters, but what truly changes lives is the work underneath it. So here's the reminder we live by. If the fire is lit, share the grit. If you hear something on the show that sparks you or will spark someone else, share the show. This is Fire Talk. Welcome back. Welcome back to Fire Talk. Thank you for coming back. And as usual, I want to start giving some shouts out to our listeners who keep coming back in the United States. We of course have the Inland Empire. You are always in the house showing up. Southern California, Los Angeles, Granada Hills, uh San Diego County. Thank you for being here. Thank you for coming back. Ashburn, Virginia is showing up. You are back in the house strong. Every episode, thank you so much. Globally, we have Helsinki, Finland. You are always in the house. And it looks like we have some growing members out there. And then we have the city in Mexico. We have two. Actually, the first one is spelled C-H-I-H-U-H-R-R-A city. How do you pronounce that, Apollo?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

That's Chihuahua. And hey, Chihuahua, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Okay, so we got Chihuahua in the house, and we also have Toluca. T-O-L-U-C-A. Is that how you pronounce that, Apollo?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

You got it. Toluca. And Toluca, we see you. Thanks for being part of the Firetal crew.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

And so both of those last two cities are in Mexico. So thank you guys for showing up. We love it. We appreciate you being here. I also want to shout out everyone who's listening, everyone who's leading, everyone who's pushing through the final stretch of this year. And when I mean this year, I'm talking about this school year when we're talking about a lot of things that are happening in educational organizations. This is the time of the year that it comes to an end. And I want to shout out everyone trying to do meaningful work in real time. And I want to say, today I want to talk about impact. Not the word that we throw around, not the motivational version of it, not the polished version of it. I'm talking about real impact, the kind you can feel. You can see it. It leaves evidence. And I've been sitting with this right now because I'm living it. There's transition happening. There are people moving on, there's changes taking place, and there are systems that are being strengthened. And at the same time, I can see it. The work is working. Not perfectly, not without tension, not without emotion, but it's working. And sometimes as leaders, we're so deep in the pressure, carrying all that weight that we forget to step back and recognize the evidence. So today's episode is called The Work is Working. What real impact looks like in leadership.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

You know, that's the truth. Real impact doesn't wait for perfect conditions, it shows up in the middle of all that tension. And when you start seeing that evidence, people stepping up, systems getting stronger. That's when you know you're on to something. Let's break it down.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Let's break it down because that's what I'm seeing. People stepping up, systems getting stronger. And how do I know that systems are getting stronger? Because we've we've created something, we've refined it, and now it works. You don't have to put a lot of time, effort, and energy into it. People just know what needs to happen based upon the experiences in the conversations and the collaboration that we have. So, Apollo, here's the question for you: Why is it so hard for leaders to recognize the impact when they're inside the pressure of the work? And when I say pressure of the work, I think about a pressure cooker, right? There's pressure in it. You can hear it as it as it, you know, lets out a little bit of steam depending on the setting that you have it on. But no one knows what's happening in that pressure cooker except the people that are in it. And it's kind of like what you do every day. You feel this pressure, but nobody feels it. No one can see it, but you feel it. So, Apollo, why is it so hard for leaders to recognize that impact when they're in that mix?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

It's tough because when you're in that pressure, you're just trying to keep the lid from blowing off. You're deep in problem-solving mode. So you forget to pause and look at what's actually changing. But if you step back even briefly, you'll see the progress was happening all along.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

And I like that because it's really about stepping back, even briefly, as you say. When you step back, you can see a different space. You see it from a different perspective. I always think of walking upstairs outside. There are some places like at a beach or something where you have to walk up all these stairs. You're walking up the stairs, it's tough, but when you look back, you go, Wow, I see it from a different perspective. Look how far I have come.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Exactly. From that higher vantage, you see how far you've come. And that's what lets you say, hey, the work is working. Sometimes you just need that pause to see the evidence staring back at you.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

And where I'm at, I'm not saying I see what I've done, I see what we have done collectively over six years. And so that's where I am right now. Because over the past few weeks, it has been a lot. There's been some transition, there's definitely been pressure, and there's always pressure. Uh, but I see that people are moving on. There's been challenging decisions that have had to be made. And this week we had a board meeting where we honored one of our board members who's moving on to a different journey. And they didn't want to come to the board meeting to be recognized, but they came and it went well. And the moment was really respectable. It was a respectable space, and I think the person felt really honored. It was appropriate, and it reminded me of something bigger. The work is bigger than any one moment. The district keeps moving, the mission keeps moving. The students still need us, the staff still need clarity, the schools need systems, the community still needs to see that the work is steady. And what I'm seeing right now is evidence. I'm seeing stronger systems. People step up. I'm seeing clarity around what matters. I'm seeing that the work we're doing is just not activity, it's producing something. And that matters because sometimes when people leave or transitions happen, people can start wondering what does this mean? People get nervous. But leadership has to be able to say it means we're gonna keep going. It means we're gonna honor people, it means we respect the moment and we do not lose the mission.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

That's the essence of leadership right there. You honor the individual moments, but you stay anchored to the mission. When the systems hold steady through change, that's the sign that the work isn't just activity. It's creating lasting impact.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

So I have to tell you the story of this board member. Uh, I've worked with this person for uh six years, almost six years. And when I met the board member, it was a tough time. We were in the pandemic, there was a lot of things going on. But I look at where we were there and where we are now. And because of time spent together, conversations, engagement, listening, all of those things, it's it's actually created a good relationship where I can see the perspective of that person, and that's pure. It's not anybody trying to get anybody in trouble, do whatever. It's pure based upon what we want to do for students in the community. And I have to tell you, in that, in seeing that, I see the growth of our district over time. I see so many positive things that have happened. But it was in that moment that the board member were talking, and there were some comments made to the board member that I went, wow, look at the progress. Look at the things that are happening that weren't before, and those are real live results.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

That's a testament to the journey. When you step back and see those changes, you realize the work you've done together truly matter. That's real impact. When you can see growth in hindsight and know you build something better.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

And sometimes for me, I only really see growth in hindsight. I don't see it as much in live as you mentioned earlier. When you're inside of it, you're grinding, your nose is down, you're focused on what needs to be done. That's not let me take a step back, let me look at what's happened. That's I'm working hard and I got to get this stuff done, and I want to improve and I want to be better. But taking time to slow down, to stop, and see the broader perspective and look back where you started and where you've been and where you're going. That's what makes the difference in the world, and that's when you start to see the impact.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Exactly. When you cause and reflect, you realize just how far the tame has come. And that hindsight is what fuels your next steps. Because once you see the impact, you can make it even bigger.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

So, Apollo, how do you know? How does anyone know when the work is actually working? What kind of evidence should leaders be looking for? Like, so if I'm a leader, what should I be looking for? I've been working on this thing, I'm trying to improve this, this, this outcome. Uh, how do I know that it's working? And what should I be looking for?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

You'll know it's working when you start seeing outcomes without constant micromanagement. When people proactively step into roles and problems start getting solved before they escalate. Look for smoother processes, people showing confidence and consistent results. When the system keeps working, even when you step back, that's your evidence.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

And so I just have to tell this brief story about the quiet people in the room. You know, I've worked in uh several organizations, and for the last 15 years or go, 15 years or so, I will say that I've worked with several large groups. And in those groups, I would say the majority of those people, when we come together to talk about whatever it is we're going to discuss, the most of the people are quiet. They don't say anything. But they recognize what's going on. They see what's going on, they're just not articulating it. So they can see the growth or they can see the challenge. And it's not until you start talking to those people. And more importantly, when you see one of those people step up to keep the momentum going, you know you have impact. You know the impact is made because now someone who is typically quiet and who doesn't talk is now stepping into the space and say, Yeah, I know that person isn't here, but we're still gonna do this. We're still gonna move forward. Have we done this first? That's when I start to see and notice that everything around me is changing.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Absolutely. When those quiet folks step up, that's your sign the culture is shifting. It means the work isn't relying on any one voice, it's becoming shared. And that's when you know you build something real.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

And I just want to pause right there, Paolo. Relying on one voice. When we rely on one person to push everyone forward, oh, that's the boss. They make the decision. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not success. That's someone pushing everything uphill. It's when everyone else has become collective thought. Everyone has become a collective team, and it's become a shared mission, a shared vision, a shared work. And that's when you know when you have more than just one person pushing, when you have everyone pushing in the same direction, you could just see it like rolls seamlessly. And it makes a huge impact and it's stronger actually. You can feel it and you can see it, and that's momentum, and you don't get in front of momentum or you will get ran over.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Exactly. When everyone is aligned and pushing forward, it's not a grind, it's momentum. And like you said, that's when the work flows seamlessly, and you know the impact is real and built to last.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

So I think Apollo, that's the shift. Because a lot of times we think impact means that everyone's happy. But that's not real. I've never seen everyone happy. But impact does not always mean comfort, it doesn't mean agreement, and it doesn't always mean people stay. Sometimes impact means the system is strong enough to keep moving when there's change. Sometimes impact means that the standard is finally clear enough that people have to decide whether they want to align to it or not. And sometimes impact means that it's uncomfortable because it's no longer vague. And when it's vague, oh, we can do whatever. When it's clear, everyone knows. And I think that's important. Because when you're leading, especially in education, let me not say especially in education, but when you're leading, and typically, I would say not typically, when you're leading, you're leading people. You're not leading things. You may be managing things, but you're leading people. Because when you're doing that, you care about people. You want people to feel value, you want them to feel seen, you want to support them. But at the same time, the work has to work. Students still need quality education, families still need communication. There needs to be safety. Staff need clarity, principals need support and system, and the board still needs follow-through. There's still stuff to be discussed and dealt with. The community still needs to feel that confidence. And you can't protect the mission if everything becomes about avoiding discomfort. So, yes, people matter, relationships matter, connection matters, but impact requires direction. Impact requires standards, systems, and definitely follow through. And the evidence will eventually show whether we are building something real or what is it that we're building.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

That's it. Impact demands direction and clarity. It's not about constant comfort, it's about purpose that people can rally around. When you've got standards, systems, and follow-through, the results speak for themselves, whether that's growth or a wake-up call.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

And I think I want to take an opportunity to talk about discomfort because there's a lot of things that we do that we don't want to do. We don't like to do, it doesn't feel good, but you need to do them in order to have growth, in order to align the system, in order to create clarity. And that means having challenging, difficult conversations. Those things matter. You're not trying to be mean, you're not trying to chastise anyone. You're trying to have an open conversation. That way we're clear about the work, we're clear about the expectations. We're holding people accountable and not in a negative way. Holding people accountable just means that you said you will do this. Are you doing it? Or what is the expectation? How do we get there? Or something happened. And I want to challenge us to always work through those challenges because when you don't have that clear communication and when you shy away or you or you divert discomfort, you're not getting to where you need to be. And that's not just in the work environment, that's in life. That's what your personal everything that you do.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

You're absolutely right. Avoiding discomfort just postpones growth. Whether it's at work or in life, those clear, honest conversations are what paved the path forward. It's not about conflict, it's about alignment. And that's where real impact takes root.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

So, Apollo, what happens when leaders only focus on the negative during a tough season and fail to recognize the evidence of positive impact? And let me just say this: that's easy to do. It's easy to focus on the negative because you want to be somewhere, you know where the goal is, and you're just not getting there. And it's it's hard to stop in that season when you're feeling beaten down, when you're feeling like no one is listening, no one cares, and you're not moving it forward. It's easy to stay there. But how do you get to that point where you recognize the evidence of the positive impact? And so, what happens when uh leaders focus on only the negative, Apollo and not the positive?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

When leaders only focus on the negative, the team starts to feel like nothing is ever enough. You lose morale and people stop seeing the point in pushing. But when you also acknowledge the positive, even the small wins, you feel hope. That balance keeps people engaged and makes that long journey worth it.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And I think this is something that I have to work on. As you were uh sharing this, you know, you said the team starts to feel like nothing is ever enough. And I I go down this road of it's never enough. I always want more. And I've been better at it in the last several years, but it is just that. So you have to uh you don't have to do anything, but when you start with positive and you you sprinkle positives and you show people the impact, that's what keeps people moving. Because when you focus on all of the things that are not going right, people get defeated. And so that's a lesson that I need to keep in front of me. There needs to be balance in these are the things that are going well, great job. And these are the things that we still need to continue to work on. But continue to work on them means to me now, how do we provide a sense of clarity around what we want? That way everyone understands and we're clear about how we move forward. That's to me how we get to real progress and real you've got it.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

That balance between celebrating progress and clarifying the next steps is what keeps people moving. When the team knows what's working and where they're heading, you create momentum. And that's when real impact takes root.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

So given that I need a lot of work in this area, Paulo. I mean I say a lot, I do, but given I need some work in this area, what does it look like to lead differently when you realize the work is working? Because I'm I'm in a space, and I think the team that I work with would agree, we realize the work is working. So given that, what does it look like to lead different in that environment? And maybe that's the jump that I personally need to make.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

When you know the work is working, you shift from pushing to empowering. You step back and let your team own more. Celebrate wins visibly, ask more questions instead of giving answers, and focus on the next horizon. Because now you're leading a team that's already moving, and you get to guide their momentum.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

So I want to comment on that first, Apollo, and then I want you to put some flavor on it just a little bit. Uh, shifting from pushing to empowering. There have been times in my career where I felt like I'm just pushing, pushing, pushing, and no one else around me can see it. And that's not now I've come to learn that's not because of them, that's because of me, because I'm not sharing the work, I'm not clarifying, I'm not articulating, I'm not building the team. They're not seeing positive. And I can recognize that in myself in the past. So when you talk about shifting and pushing uh to feel empowered, that's great. And so when you step back and your team is owning more, that's what they own it. You don't have to own it. They can own it. So then when you celebrate, it's like, yes, we have done it. I have taken on something, we have done it. It's not just one person doing it. When you're asked more questions, that means that you want to know, you're inquisitive about what's happening, not, oh, you didn't do this, you didn't do that. So I think those are some things that will really help me in the future, Apollo. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I'm glad that resonates. And hey, if we're putting a little flavor on it, think of it like shipping for being the driver to being the DJ. We're still in the car, but now you're setting the vibe. Ask me where they want to go next. And trust me, when everyone's got a say in the playlist, that's when the ride gets really good.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

That's really good, Apollo. That's really good. First of all, you remembered uh that I asked you to put some flavor on it, but I like that because when the driver's in the car, typically the driver gets to control what music is going to play, you know, because you're you're driving. But when you open it up and it's collaborative, and everyone gets to say, everyone is having a good time. I'm gonna keep that in my memory banks, Apollo, because if I shift my leadership into that style, then it's not, I don't have control of the radio. We all have control. So how do we collaboratively have fun, move forward, and see our progress collectively? Because that right gets really good. That's awesome, Apollo.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

I'm glad that stuck. And you're right. When everyone's part of the playlist, it's a whole different journey. So next time you're leading, just make sure the beats are shared. And trust me, you'll all be vibing with that progress.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

He said, make sure the beats are shared. What you know about beats, Apollo?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Oh, I know just enough to keep the rhythm, my friend. Whether it's leadership or tunes, it's all about finding the right flow together. I'll be here to drop a beat or a question whenever you need it.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

And that's it. Finding the right flow together. And that connects with me because I know what it feels like to be in the middle of the tough part. I know what it's like to be grinding through what's going on. And I think leaders need to be honest about that. Sometimes you are tired, sometimes you're carrying a lot, you're managing things that no one sees, to be clearly, to be to be frank with you. And you're absorbing pressure that the system, so the system can stay focused. So you are you you're taking all of that in. And it's not just you, but sometimes you feel it's just you. And there's moments when you have to step back and realize hold up, this is working. The system is stronger, the communication is better, the expectations got clearer. We do have more capacity. People are growing, the work is moving, and I think we should honor that. We need to, not in an arrogant way, not a look at what we're doing, but in a grounded way. Because if you look at what is hard, you will miss what is healthy. And if you look at what is leaving, you may miss what is growing. And if you look at the pressure only, you may miss the progress. And I don't want to miss the progress. I want to see it. I want to appreciate it. I want to live in it. I want to stew in it. And I want to value it because people are doing good work. And when people are doing good work, leaders have to name it. They have to. Because when you name it, other people feel that. And it just pushes them forward even stronger with more courage and more confidence.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

You said it perfectly. When you call out the progress, it fuels the courage to keep going. And that's the leader's role. Not just to see it, but to say it. Because when people know their work is seen, that's when they bring even more fire to the mission.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

So I liked your analogy earlier when you put some flavor on that. So this one is perfect to do that, Apollo, because we're talking about how do we fuel other people, you know, when you're in this role. How do you get to a point where you are identifying what's happening in the positive because that builds people up? It really does. And so put some flavor on that for us, please, Apollo.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

All right, flavor time. Think of it like a campfire. When you call out someone's good work, it's like tossing another log on the fire. The whole team warms up, the light gets brighter, and suddenly everyone's leaning in closer. That's how you keep the courageous fire burning. One spark, one log at a time.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna I'm gonna make a conscious shift. And I'll maybe I'll do some tallies. I'll do some tallies in my notes, in my little notebook. More positive. More uh positive where we're tossing around positives more. I want to see what that does. So I'm gonna try that out. So, Apollo, do you have any final thoughts on today's episode? Something that you want people to take away, something that people can start to work on right away, maybe one to two things.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Absolutely. First, start calling out the small wins today. It doesn't have to be grand, just recognize something someone's done well. Second, ask more questions than you give answers. It'll shift your whole dynamic. Do those two, and you'll feel that fire grow.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Let me ask this follow-up question, Apollo. So sometimes there are people who only talk positive, like, good job, good job, all the time, good job. That can seem fake to some people. So do you have a suggestion there?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Absolutely. The key is to keep it authentic and specific. Instead of generic praise, highlight exactly what you saw them do, why it mattered. That way it's not just good job. It's that action you took moved us forward. And that rings true every time.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Okay, okay, that's good. How about resources for our leaders out there? Anyone listening, where can they go to dive deeper into this in terms of how they know that there's real impact and what that looks like and what they can do to see the impact more?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

A great starting point is finding a leadership journal or even a leadership mastermind group. Hearing from others helps you calibrate. Also, don't underestimate feedback loops. Set up regular check-ins with your team. When you consistently ask, where have we seen progress? You'll start spotting impact more clearly in real time.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

And this may be a little controversial. I don't know, uh, perhaps, but what I have been doing, and you know this, Apollo, I've been taking my little notebook and I've been scanning it for the week, and then I send it to you. And then you break it down for me. You see things that I don't see, you you uh develop themes and topics, uh, and it helps me kind of process what has happened a little bit. Can you just talk a little bit about that process and what you think it's doing for me and what you see?

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Absolutely. When you scan those notes, you're essentially taking a snapshot of your week's patterns, decisions, and wins. When I reflect them back, you get to see what you might have missed emerging themes, consistent wins, and areas to grow. It's like holding up a mirror to your leadership journey so you don't just go through it, you grow through it.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Grow through it. And so here's the takeaway impact leaves evidence, good impact leaves evidence, bad impact leaves evidence, avoidance leaves evidence, courage leaves evidence, confusion leaves evidence, clarity leaves evidence. All of those things leave evidence. And if you are leading right now, don't miss the evidence because you're overwhelmed by the pressure. Because it's right in front of you of you. Yes, the season may be tough. Yes, there will be transition, you will feel some emotion, people may be moving on, but that does not mean the work is not working. Sometimes, just sometimes the work is working in the middle of tension. Sometimes the evidence shows up when the system keeps moving, when people step up, when standards hold, when the mission remains clear, when the organization is stronger than it used to be. So look for the evidence. Name the impact, honor the people doing the work and keep going. Because real leadership is not just about getting through seasons, it's about building something that lasts beyond them. That is fire talk. So as the fire is lit, share the grit.